S2EP26-Paul & Sarah Wandrey-The Why Dad Podcast: Unpacking Parenting with the Wandrey Duo

Herb: 00:00:19

Today, I have the pleasure of introducing Paul and Sarah Wandrey. Married for six years, they live in Minnesota with their two children who are both under five.

They're both passionate about family and share interests in hiking, traveling, lake days, and spending quality time together as a family. Paul is a software developer by day, but he's pursuing his passion at night by developing the why dad Podcast with the Y dad podcast.

Along with his co host, he finds out what it means to be a dad, why it matters, and how. How we can become the best dads, how they can become the best dads possible.

And he is passionate and loving and guided about guiding his children and being the best husband, father and man possible. Sarah was born and raised in Minnesota and has lived here her whole life. Lived there her whole life.

She is the youngest of four kids with three older brothers. And she attended public schools in the same Minnesota St.

Paul suburb through high school and then pursued degrees in marketing Spanish at the University of Minnesota. After graduation, she started working in sales for a global company based out of Minnesota and has been a sales manager for the past six years.

he University of Minnesota in: 2021

Paul: 00:01:41

Yeah, thank you for having us.

Sarah: 00:01:42

Yes, thank you. We're really excited to be here.

Kristina: 00:01:44

Thank you so very much. Yeah, so this show is going to be just a little bit different.

Lots of times we're interviewing experts who want to share their knowledge and tips and things.

And today we're taking it on a little bit of a different journey where we're checking in with a family who is learning and exploring why they want to have that family development, why they want to work on building their families closer like it said in their bios.

And then they're also exploring, exploring what kind of education they want for their children because their children are about to embark on that journey.

So, Paul and Sarah, I really appreciate this because this is an opportunity where other families who are kind of in the same boat are thinking, oh, wait, we can listen in on somebody else's ideas and thoughts about this and we can have a discussion around it.

And just basically it's one of those things that we want to see if we can help other families when they come to this crossroad and maybe even help you make a decision about what you might want to do with your kiddos as you're moving forward. So thank you for your. Your openness thank you for being willing to be here on the show and talk about this with us.

And of course, we'll also get to the podcast and all the other cool things that you're up to. The first question is, I guess one of you was partially homeschooled or mostly homeschooled, and one of you was public education schooled as well.

And so coming from those two different aspects, as you kind of talked about your experiences, did you find that they were drastically different or were actually were more similar than you thought they would be?

Paul: 00:03:10

Yeah, that's.

Sarah: 00:03:11

I would say about as different as it possibly could be. Paul, you can kind of talk through a little bit about your, your background here.

Paul: 00:03:18

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I think we, we found a lot of differences.

I, I think the common thing would be that, you know, our parents are, we're trying to set us up for success in the, in the best way possible. And they each found different routes.

Where it really varied is when I was homeschooled, which was all the way up until high school, it was me and my family, which was great, and social activities, extracurricular, sports, homeschooling group, but still rather limited from what I've gathered over the years and from talking with Sarah compared to like public school life. And then, and then I went to boarding school, which was an immersion with a bunch of other guys my age, but still that was religious oriented.

So still kind of a different vibe. So very different from the, from the system, like the public school system.

Sarah: 00:04:31

Yeah. And so, you know, from my experience, I, as I mentioned, as you mentioned in my biography, I'm the youngest of four kids.

My mom's actually a, she was a grade school teacher for 35 years, third and fourth grade.

My oldest brother ended up becoming a teacher as well and teaches a couple high school, you know, AP classes and history, world geography types of courses. I also considered becoming an educator as well. I kind of waffled between that and ended up going the business route.

But I was born and raised in the same community as my brothers all were. It's one of the top districts in the state for public schools and we're in a very strong state across the country.

So my experience was very good all around. I have friends that today that go back to when I was in kindergarten, even so elementary school, junior high, etc.

And yeah, I had a very positive experience throughout, ended up deciding to go to college at a larger school just to experience the benefits of broader diversity, which I'm sure that's probably something that we'll talk about in our discussion here today.

But I saw a lot of benefit through going through the public school system and a lot of that is influenced as well from being part of a home where we had educators in the household too.

Kristina: 00:05:54

Yeah.

And I can completely understand that because being a teacher myself for 27 years, you know, being like your, your family, it's just interesting whenever you start looking at something different than what you, you grew up in and you were raised with. Right.

But then that's part of my passion with our company with Vibrant Family is really taking that knowledge of the system and around the system and helping families make a great fit choice for their education.

So that's awesome that you guys have the experiences to talk about back and forth and share and then really have a full spectrum of ideas about when it comes to your children and their education, what might be possible.

Herb: 00:06:32

Yeah.

And I must say, if you live in a good school district with that kind of reputation, it does make taking your children out and educating them more of a difficult decision. I would have to totally agree with that in, in. But in places, in some places.

So as a 27 year teacher and as someone who has a different way of looking at things, I got to watch the system crumble from kind of an inside, outside point of view because she was the inside and I. So I got to watch the system crumble where we were.

So when she first started teaching, the joy that she got to be with the children and the interaction she had with the parents and then it was the systematic way that this, that the, that the administration took away her powers and took away the ability to reach the parents and started teaching her or I should say started forcing her to teach to, to tests and to get. And so they weren't focusing on education system as well. So in our particular area, the soul, the school system.

So when she first started again, it was a different kind of school. It was one of the highest rated in Oregon.

And then it had to combine with a different school district and now it's almost to the point of put it being put under academic suspension. So we got to watch it crash and so that kind of informed our decision and how we help other parents make that decision.

So if you're living in a school district that weathered that storm and is holding on to the integrity of actually educating the children and that's fabulous. And then, you know, just getting help to how to navigate the system to make the most out of it would would be where you would need it.

But again, you're also entrepreneur based Right.

Paul: 00:08:21

Yeah. I mean, with my podcast we're still pretty early on, so I still work a full time job and then I do that, as you alluded to in the, in the intro.

But you know, if, if we can get that up and running, then I'll be more available. Like, that's one of my objectives, is to be able to spend more time with my family.

Herb: 00:08:46

So, so one of the things that we talk about is the top three myths that we help parents break when deciding to do homeschooling. So let's see how close we are. What is your top concern with.

Okay, this is, this is like, or maybe just like the top three, you know, what are the top three concerns that you have with homeschooling and what are the big sticking points of, of why you would maybe not want to go, maybe not want to go that route?

Sarah: 00:09:22

So I, I mean, I personally haven't been around much of anyone that has done homeschooling before, outside of my husband, but I wasn't around that, you know, growing up. I'm hearing about it, you know, as an adult.

You know, one of the, the big things I would say is from a social interaction perspective, I'm not sure how often it's just with members from in your family or with other families close by, but you're really exposing yourself to such a small population that, that is a concern for me.

You know, part of the, the benefit that I see in public, public education is you're exposing yourself to such a wide variety of people from different, you know, ethnic backgrounds, different, different financial situations, people that think differently than you, people that think differently than the person who's doing the teaching, you know, so I think having different types of social interactions with different people, you know, allowing people to your kids to develop that, that skill set I think is really important.

You know, I know Paul, at times you said, you know, in certain interactions in adulthood, like, oh yeah, I wasn't the best at that, you know, as an early 20 something. And you know, you were around your, your siblings a lot and they moved around a lot as kids too.

So I think that's, that's a concern that I would have is kind of the social piece, I kind of blended that a bit with the other piece, which is like from a diversity perspective, I think that's important to.

Paul: 00:10:52

Diversity of thought.

Sarah: 00:10:53

Yeah, diversity of thought.

So I mean, one of the reasons I went to, you know, the University of Minnesota versus, you know, the area that I grew up was, you know, heavily, you know, white, similar, you know, upper middle class. And you know, I really wanted to surround myself with people that were not like me.

And so going to a big school like that, when you're in a classroom, you get a lot of different perspectives from people because people have different life experiences. Is that going to be the case for like a 5 year old? Not necessarily. Right.

I mean, I think that's something that you build over time, but, you know, you start broadening the horizons of who, who else is in this classroom with your kids.

And I think that's a really important thing because like you guys mentioned before, it's not necessarily always what you teach your kids, but teaching them how to think, how to problem solve, how to reason, how to debate, how to, you know, there's a lot of elements to that. And I think education can be enhanced by having more people that are dissimilar to you.

And I think that's true in the business world and really any situation, even outside of education. So those are a couple of the big things that I would say are concerns for me.

And probably lastly, I look at, and some of this comes from coming from a family of educators, but I know that my brother, with his specialty in history, he's going to be able to teach children that topic extremely well. I don't know, from a homeschooling perspective where someone has to wear several hats at once, how well will children learn a certain topic?

Will the level of discussion be as enhanced as it would be in a public school with someone who knows the topic, knows how to create discussion, create debate better? So hopefully that answers the question. Sorry, that was kind of long winded.

Kristina: 00:13:07

Well, that is awesome. I love, love, love the way you described that and how you were, you know, expressing those concerns and kind of sharing and comparing.

Herb: 00:13:15

Yeah. So your first two we kind of combine into one. And your second one is we have a kindly, a slightly different name is. Is.

And so the one is my kids won't be properly socialized if, if they are schooled at home. One of the top three, that's, that's there.

The second one is I'm not the best person to teach my child, or I'm not the best qualified, or I wasn't good in school, why should I be teaching my child? So you hit, you definitely hit two of the top three. And, and how would you, how would you respond now? Because very well articulated concerns.

Where would you start with that? And where would you want to.

Kristina: 00:13:58

And again, this isn't a show all about trying to convince or not convince, but just kind of sharing ideas and discussions as well. And so, yeah, it's in. It's nice to know that what we talk about is actually, you know, part of what you were concerned about. Yeah.

Herb: 00:14:11

Okay. So I'm gonna, I'm gonna actually. So I see things a little differently. And I read stuff in your bio, so I didn't put it all in there.

There's more in his bio. Make sure you go read it. But you were. You're possibly going to be going into the seminary, correct?

Paul: 00:16:02

Yeah, I, I was. And just to add even a little bit more color, Sarah alluded to it, which supports.

Or the reason why homeschooling made more, even more sense in my background was my dad was in the Air Force, so we were never in any location more than three years. So hopping around between schools, homeschooling definitely, definitely made a lot of sense. And then. And then. Yeah, and then.

Herb: 00:16:26

Yeah.

So I was gonna say a lot of times, religious kind of homeschooling with the, with the focus from the religious background do tend to limit exposure to outside influences, but that's not typical outside necessarily of the more religious homeschool based. And even, and even now there's a lot of religious home schools that are branching out from that for, for greater context. So that is that, that.

And, and again, when we were growing up, the weird kids out there were the homeschool ones. And a lot of them were, you know, were the shy ones, but they paved the way. And so thank you for going through that because you paved the way.

And so much has been learned. And now homeschooling is done so much different.

Kristina: 00:17:15

And one other thing that really impacted a lot of what's happening with homeschooling and the resources out there is everything that happened, of course, with COVID because a lot of things that used to be a concern are less of a concern now because there's more curriculum online, there's more support online. And there's so many groups that have popped up to help support each other as people are learning and teaching and things like that.

Herb: 00:17:40

And there are so many more different kind of educational tools and opportunities. There's, there's pods, there's online curriculums. There are so many different ways to go about it.

And there's also tools now and groups of homeschoolers to help with the, with the interactions between different people.

There's also most school districts now for after school activities inside of your district, you can take your children to public schools for the after school activities, for the plays, the sports, the stuff like that.

Kristina: 00:18:16

Yes, you get that interaction with the community people as well.

Herb: 00:18:20

And one of this is one of the things that I so like to talk about is when you are also homeschooled and your children develop a passion, say into music, instead of going to a music class once a week or maybe twice a week, depending on how your school does it, with a whole bunch of kids who don't really want to be there and are poking and playing to do her favorite subject now she gets to go as a.

You're going to go find a place to take her to a music class and you're going to go there and there's going to be people of lots of different age working in cooperation to a common goal.

So instead of lots of distractions, kids not wanting to be there, she is going to go to a place where people are working towards a common goal and cooperation across age groups and with. And then you get the biodiversity that are the biodiversity, the human diversity that you want.

You go if she likes dance and you start going to a dance class in the middle of the day where there's lots of other people who are doing it because they want to be. And so there's ways to do it where you get the, the interaction, the interactions that you want.

And, and one of the things that we really recommend is, is going to your local food bank and starting that.

Kristina: 00:19:36

Kind of an action, other community service.

Herb: 00:19:38

With your children and start returning stuff to the community and giving back and showing the, the community aspect of it. Because as you get into the family and it grows in a community and then it grows into society.

Kristina: 00:19:51

So I want to pause right there also and kind of ask Paul, you know, what's your hesitation? So can we let Sarah say, well, you know, I'm concerned about this and this. What would be your hesitations about homeschooling as well?

Paul: 00:20:04

Yeah, I actually don't have too many other than the ones that Sarah has brought up.

I think one that just came into my head is like, you know, you mentioned her doing things during the day, but right now we're both full time employees, so doing that would actually be a bit challenging at this point in our life. So I think that right now would probably be my biggest concern.

Kristina: 00:20:35

Yeah, and that's actually the third thing that we talk about a lot.

Herb: 00:20:38

I don't have time.

Kristina: 00:20:38

I don't have time or my family doesn't have time or we don't know how we would work it out. Yeah, and that's, that's awesome that you hit all of those. And a common theme you know, it.

Paul: 00:20:47

Sounds like you've heard, you've done the homework. Yeah, no fun in.

Kristina: 00:20:50

Yeah, exactly.

And you know that with that one, again, we go back to those co ops, those family groups that you get connected with as you're working with other homeschool groups and things like that. And you can usually work that out. And it sounds like you're in an area where you're close to family.

So then of course you can get family to help out as well during time.

Herb: 00:21:09

And.

Kristina: 00:21:09

And the biggest thing is the flexibility because now school doesn't have to be between 8am and 3pm in the afternoon. Now it can be afternoon after you do morning work, business, etc. Or it can be even nights and weekends if you have to kind of thing.

It can be moved around your life, in your schedule in a way that makes it so that your children are still being cared for and supported by people that you love and know, and at the same time they're still getting the benefit of homeschooling. So, yeah, very, very interesting that those things that you brought up were exactly the things.

Herb: 00:21:43

Yeah.

And one other aspect is most people think it takes like six to eight hours a day of education for their children, whereas in the academics is only some, sometimes only one or two hours a day, sometimes two or three, depending on the age. And then the rest of the time it's building family, It's. It's how they interact with the families, building communication.

It's time where the children gets to work on themselves. So if they really love drawing, they can spend a couple hours doing their drawing.

If they really love music, they can spend a couple hours doing their music and their education in there. It becomes play. And again, I think the main one we focus on is reading.

Reading is so very, very important and it's something that's really lacking currently in our public education system. Because if you can get your children to read properly, then at an early age, then they start pulling.

They start, oh, I can get this information on my own about this stuff that I like. And then you can. And then if you follow the education on what they like, then they start pulling it into themselves.

And even when they're not doing their homework, they're off learning it because that's what they want to do instead of having to force a subject on them.

Paul: 00:22:57

Yeah, you kind of highlight.

One of my happiest memories of homeschooling was being done by like before lunch and sometimes even earlier, you know, like having lunch at 11 and then having the rest of the day. To do whatever. And I remember spending a lot of time reading.

One question I do have for you is, you know, there is a lot to be said about the child pursuing what interests them, and you've already highlighted that.

But, you know, what if, like, what guidance would you recommend for helping encourage the children to explore those interests as opposed to, you know, like, maybe they just want to, um, read. I'm going to date myself here. But like boxcar children or Hardy Boys all day, you know, or now, I guess, play video games all day. Like, what.

Do you have any thoughts on that?

Kristina: 00:23:59

That's a really great question because you're right. Whenever there are those interests, especially if their friends are really into, like, video games and things like that.

And a lot of that goes back to what we really like to talk about with families. Very, very first is what are your family values and what are your education goals?

And as you share those with your children and your expectations, then you're able to set kind of those boundaries so it doesn't turn into, oh, I'm only going to read this kind of book, or I'm only going to, you know, do this kind of activity, or, oh, I just want to be on video games all day. Because as you're sharing, exploring those values and sharing them with your family, then you get to guide. Right.

And then there is a little bit of thing called boredom. Right.

Because after a while of reading just the same kind of book all the time, sooner or later they're gonna like, okay, done with this kind of book. Want to branch into something else. Yeah, exactly. So hopefully that answers your question a little bit. I want to hear.

Herb: 00:24:50

I heard it. I heard his question a little bit bit different. So I want to answer it a little bit differently. Oh, wow. It just slipped age appropriately.

Okay, what was the question again? Because I have it. I'm just trying to.

Kristina: 00:25:06

Oh, go ahead.

Paul: 00:25:08

Yeah. So how do we. How would parents. How do you recommend parents guide their children or encourage their children?

Herb: 00:25:16

It's a hybrid approach, and it starts more authoritarian at first, and you gradually ease off. So at first, when the children are very young, you're going to need to tell them, teach them, tell them what to think.

You're going to need to say, hey, you're going to need to set boundaries and you're going to need to set structures. And those boundaries and structures are like putting a cage around a tomato plant.

They are going to go up and there's sometimes going to be offshoots that jump out the side and you're going to need to snip those because that's, that's too much. But there's also going to be parts that are growing up and get outside of the cage. But there's really healthy growth within that.

So you put this structure around. And so at the start there's a lot of this is how you have to do it, but age appropriately.

As they get older, you ease those restrictions and with education you back off and allow them to start their own growth and learning process while at the same time structuring that and, but again structure and then back off, snip off the parts that are, that are going to detriment the plant but let it grow around, up through the, through the structure. And so that, that's what I would tell you with the way you ask that question.

Sarah: 00:26:33

I have a quick question. So are you both proponents of homeschooling through elementary school all the way through or kind of what are, what is your take on what is best?

And some of it may depend on.

Herb: 00:26:48

Each kid, but that depends on families. That depends on situations with two people working.

If you don't have an extended family around you, homeschooling is going to be a lot more difficult. So we would focus on how to build communication and structures to improve what the school's doing. If, if it's not adequate in your situation.

But if you have like, if an older sister that could stay home, a grandma, an aunt and uncle that would want to help, then, then it makes a lot of this more plausible with, with the two working family. So again, it's based on the individual situations of the family there. One size fits all.

Which again is why we try and help people get out of the school system. Because school system is one size fits all.

Sarah: 00:27:34

Yeah, because the, the question, I guess my follow up question to that would be, I mean I think about my experience going through the public schools and a lot of the curriculum.

I would say, you know, you're spending most time in the classroom doing a lot of the basic, you know, topics or courses throughout the day until you're in about three, third, fourth grade, they started adding more diversity.

But then when you get to middle school or junior high, whatever they call it in your area, kids can really start exploring other types of courses and kind of choose for themselves what they may have interest in. And that continues to broaden as they get further into middle school and then into high school.

So you have a lot more experience in homeschooling and what's available than I do. But how do you allow your kids to know what their options are out there and not just what you present to them.

I mean, I think about that even from a sporting perspective, your kids don't know any better.

I mean, if you say, do you want to play soccer or do you want to play softball versus there's 10 other things they could play, how are they getting all of their opportunity out there to explore what they're really passionate about? So I think about that from an education perspective. How do you handle that?

And I hope I'm explaining this correctly, but how do you handle that from a homeschooling standpoint? You mentioned her. If they're really passionate about music, well, what sort of things are you exposing them to with music?

What other things are they getting exposed to in general with homeschooling? And how do you make sure that you provide enough variety that your kids know what's out there to become interested in and passionate about?

Herb: 00:29:20

Well, the fact that you asked that question shows that. That you care enough that.

Kristina: 00:29:25

That you're going to make it happen.

Herb: 00:29:27

You're going to make that happen. So they're interested in that, and you're going to go, oh, hey, have you looked at this? Have you looked at this?

So I can just tell by you that, that way, that question, that you're going to expand and push your kids. Another really cool aspect of this, it's also a business aspect, is it's fail fast.

And in this case, it's not necessarily failure, but you commit to doing something, okay, I like this music. I'm going to do this for six months. I'm going to do this for a year. You put in the work, you do it, and the child.

The child does, or an adult, but it's easier as a child. So six months in, it's like, wow, you know what? This isn't what I thought it was. It just seemed more exciting.

Now I kind of want to go off in this direction. It's like, make them finish their commitment. But then it's like, now they're going in here. Now they know instead of being forced to push it.

It's like, now they know and they have a basic. And now they. It's like, now they're going to follow this. And that's another learning opportunity for starting over, for resilience.

It's like, okay, that didn't work great. Let's. Let's get to where I can stop. Let's pivot and let's go. And that's a resilient skill that, that will help you later in life tremendously.

Kristina: 00:30:44

I mean, and just like, you know, the other kids, whenever they're in school, like you said, you know, they're now in these classes with these other kids. So they're getting exposed to other thoughts and other people and never other experiences.

Because as those kids are sitting there like, oh, yeah, I also go to this class, and I also do gymnastics or I also do this. So they're still hearing and getting those other ideas of what else is out there.

So, like I said, and like Herb said, because you even ask the question, you're going to make sure that they're exposed to some different things, and they'll pick up on those and they'll know kind of which way to help them explore a little bit.

Herb: 00:31:17

And kind of from experience, they. If it's just completely wrong for them, they'll. They'll drop it and go. But if it's.

If it's close, they might shift a little bit and get closer and navigate into something closer. So it might start off with, like, softball, but then get into some other competitive sports.

Not quite softball, but that, that started where they wanted to go, and now, now it's over here in bicycle racing. Because now they're, you know, so in a different way.

So it's like there's so many different aspects of, once they want to pivot, you let them complete and then pivot instead of forcing them or holding onto it for too long, it's like. And then they get so many more experiences along the way, and they can find their passion and they can find maybe what makes them happy.

And if they find that early enough, there are so many ways to turn that into developmentally, into what they want to do for a living, into following their passions, into having the experiences like, oh, wow, this really is what I want to do. Go do that for 10 years. And then it's like. But I also learned how to stop and go that way now. So it increases resiliency.

Paul: 00:32:35

But I have a question for you. Something you said triggered. Just not sure which, but AI is definitely becoming a concern. Like, people are already raising a lot of red flags.

Whether or not it's well warranted or not, I guess, remains to be seen. I think adjustments will be needed, made. Have you seen AI being used within the homeschooling infrastructure? And if so, how?

And like, has it been used? Well, has it been abused? Like, what. What have you seen?

Kristina: 00:33:12

So far it hasn't been used in the homeschooling structure per se. I.

I mean, depending on the family, how tech savvy, how much they want their children exposed technology, you know, they may be bringing in different aspects of it, but I haven't seen an impact directly. But again, my biggest thing about that and even me using it for my own business is like, whose voice do you want to come through?

Even if you're using it, are you allowing it to take over and just like do everything for you, or are you making sure that your voice and your values and your thoughts are coming through within that?

So I think that would be the biggest thing is if you choose as a family to introduce some of the AI into, you know, and experience that, or have that help you guide your building of your curriculum or help guide the lesson plans for your children, things like that. Because it's capable of doing that. Right.

Again, because you're caring parents, you're going to make sure that it aligns with your values, what you really feel is important for your children to be exposed to or not exposed to, and how much it will really play into it. So, yeah, I haven't specifically seen it, but, but those are some of the things like you said, the cautions that we have to kind of put into place.

But then, of course, the value of it as well.

Herb: 00:34:25

Yeah, yeah, I'm old. I hurt my head. I don't go into technology very much. I would love to get into AI.

I've had some people show me some stuff and some prompts, and the information that you can get out of it is incredible. So if you use it as a tool for expansion, then it can be incredible, but it can also be addictive and used in some very weird ways.

So the possibilities are there. It's, it's, it's not a fad. It's not going anywhere.

The data centers are one of the global, global power concerns for data centers is, is one of the emerging, you know, global concerns of governments right now, the data centers. So AI. It's like I'm too old to even begin to understand. It's like I, I remember, I'm, I, I predate cell phones, I predate the Internet.

It's like, you know, to have somebody born into this current understanding and possibilities in this society, you know, the, the kids nowadays are born with more knowledge than I will ever have. And so I can't even begin to possibly predict the, the advancements and the possibilities of AI. And it's a tool. It can be used for good or bad and.

Paul: 00:35:54

Yeah, exactly. And I mean, I think it does depend on the school district and the school itself.

But I think earlier you alluded to how at least the school that you're teaching and Christina that started becoming extremely test oriented.

And so maybe in that environment, students might be more inclined, if it's just all about like the grades and the end result, like the metric is what matters as opposed to the content, which matters. They might be more inclined to use AI because it'll make getting the grade, achieving that grade easier.

But in other schools that maybe do it a little bit differently or in the homeschooling environment where the focus is on the kids interests and the fulfillment that they get out of pursuing that, then they'll probably be more inclined to use it as a tool as opposed to, as a tool to achieve that fulfillment as opposed to a tool to just get the grade.

Kristina: 00:37:04

Yeah, exactly.

Herb: 00:37:05

You know something I would like to one of the, one of our guests on our podcast homeschooled her kid for several years and then, due to circumstances and moving, needed to put her child into public education for a while.

And when the child got into public education, it's like the teachers just praised her for asking questions, for being intuitive, for, for just that, that inquisitive nature because she hadn't been told to sit down and line up and be quiet for years on end. So that inquisitiveness, so that, that inquisitiveness sparked something in the teacher and loved it. But it, it had to come from the outside.

Kristina: 00:37:46

And even the other kids, they're like, oh, wow, you always ask such interesting questions. Well, how do you come up with those kinds of questions? Because of course she had that different background.

So I think part of what Herb's trying to get to, and we always say as well, is like, remember, homeschooling isn't the end. It could be the beginning, it could be the middle, it could be a springboard into learning. Right?

And if something doesn't work, then you can always go back to something else or a hybrid of etc.

Herb: 00:38:13

Hybrids are amazing.

So again, if your school can do it, do it part time, take a couple of subjects off, bring your child home, give them the, that otherworldly experience, and then send them back to school. So there's so many opportunities and possibilities.

Kristina: 00:38:27

And actually one of the students that I, I currently tutor was like, that the family knows that he has special needs, so he's at school for a portion of the day. But he's also worked out with the school that, you know, he doesn't learn well during this class period.

So instead of him sitting here in class causing issues because he's not learning or not, you know, having issues or getting overstimulated.

We're going to actually take him out and go have him tutored specifically to his needs during this time and then we'll bring him back to school later in the day. So that was one way for a special needs family that was able to do what was best for their children.

Sarah: 00:39:04

Yeah, yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense and I think, you know, circumstances like that, you absolutely need to do what's best for the kid. And I, I don't know enough about what's offered at plan public schools versus not for special needs.

But yeah, you have to provide what form of education makes the most sense for the child. Absolutely.

Herb: 00:39:25

And you know, you're not open minded. Leave it open. It's like it doesn't have to be one way.

You can homeschool for a year, send them to school for a year, homeschool for year, bounce it back and forth and see really what works for you as a family. As a family.

And that might, your child, that might really excite your child and your child might like, you know what, I really want to go back to school or I really like this, this dynamic here.

So giving them a little bit of feedback into their own education path, you know, again, it's your decision, but giving them agency in helping make that decision.

Kristina: 00:40:03

Is really what I think you want.

Because just hearing about your background and how you both want to develop your family and make sure that you're giving your child the best they can.

And the other crazy thing is that some families, one child will go to school because that's the best place for them and the other child will be homeschooled because that's the best place for them.

So it's amazing as we've talked to different families and interacted with different groups, what we have seen as part of like the combination and things like that. Paul, you were about to say something.

Paul: 00:40:32

Yeah, let me see if I can reach back into the recesses of my brain for that. Yeah. So regarding hybrid, and then you also talked about like, I don't know what's out there.

So for the, for the parents who don't know what's out there, are there resources that, I mean, obviously you guys are a resource.

But you know, if we, for example, we wanted to, outside of visiting and calling up our school, which we're absolutely willing to do, are there resources out there for families to say like, okay, yeah, in this school district, hybrid, like here are the hybrid options available, Maybe kind of like a, a Wikipedia or. Or some social Wikipedia for homeschooling. Is there anything out there like that?

Herb: 00:41:21

There will almost certainly be, and it's very individualized. There are going to be Facebook groups, There are going to be online groups.

It takes a very little bit of research, and we can actually help with that.

Kristina: 00:41:33

And I don't have anything specific right off the top of my head.

Herb: 00:41:36

Not. Not for your area, but with very little research, then. Then there's all sorts of groups that you can get into.

You can start finding out about pods, about different. And start.

And start putting together a plan in even different aspects, like this pod here, this group here, and just piece together a thing that works best for your family.

Kristina: 00:41:56

And I want to jump in there, Paul, because you said something that visiting schools and talking to the school district and things like that, which is absolutely amazing.

The other thing I want to add in there is go talk to the pta, the parent teacher organization, want to get in there and talk to the parents who are actually in the school helping, because they know a lot more than what is actually said on the outside. And that is one of the biggest, hugest clues I can give to any family who's looking for a school district that is a good fit.

Go talk to the parents who are active in the schools, because they will give you insights that you really don't know.

I mean, you know, being a teacher, I got in on some of those conversations with those parents who were in the schools helping, and they could always tell you, oh, yeah, well, this teacher is doing this right now, and this teacher is doing that right now.

And then, of course, much to our chagrin, they're like, oh, yeah, and my child will definitely be better in this person's classroom than this person's classroom. So we're going to recommend this teacher be their teacher kind of thing.

So, yeah, really make sure that as parents are exploring the school district thing, go find those parent groups. Yeah, yeah.

Paul: 00:43:02

Something else you mentioned, Herb, was regarding the example of the student who they ended up.

Who ended up going back to public school and was asking all these poignant questions, you know, and you highlighted how the environment back at home helps support that. And that's something that you and I have talked about is like, a lot of the stats that we see on education are averages, but we're a little biased.

But we don't see our family as average.

We, like, we would think that our kid would come home and we'd be talking to them about school at dinner or in the car ride, whatever, to help continue that line of thinking.

Aside from that, what other suggestions do you have for parents who are in the following the public school route for whatever reason, who want to foment that critical thinking, that line of questioning, et cetera?

Kristina: 00:44:00

One of the biggest things I can think of is that, you know, making sure that when the child comes up with something in the school and they're like, well, I'm not sure my teacher said this. And then you're like, well, I'm not so sure about that either. Making sure you're following up.

What was the teacher really teaching at that point and what did they really want to convey that maybe you don't understand or the child just doesn't understand. Also look into your rules about opting in or opting out.

Because there are, you know, some families like, well, I'm not sure I really want the teacher talking about the subject with my child, you know, so opt in, opt out, testing things like that, that can really give you help. Have the power over educating and making sure that your child is getting a value oriented education like you want. Exactly.

And then the other thing is expanding those horizons on the weekends, on the days off.

And one of the things I regret now as the person I am now when I was in the classroom, was that when that parent would come to me and say, you know what, I really want to take a week, take my kid out of school for a week and go do this as a family or go visit this grandparent or whatever. And in my early days I'm like, oh no, they can't miss school. That would be horrible. And my thing now is, please take them and go.

Being human, visiting family, having those experiences and missing a week of school is nothing to be concerned about. It's better to have those experiences in your child's life and in your family life.

Build those memories, build that communication, build those things that really keep you close together.

Paul: 00:45:41

Love that.

Sarah: 00:45:41

Yeah, I would agree.

I mean, even seeing, you know, through my own experience and then with my mom, as an educator, my brother, I mean, so much of it revolved around you needed to be at school and it was difficult to have time away. I mean, there were things that you could take home, there were things that you couldn't. And making it up was really difficult.

You know, one of the, not that there were a lot of great things that came out of COVID but one of the things that I think was positive for the public education system was that it taught districts as well as teachers how to educate differently and to be more open and flexible. To different types of instruction and to missing some time and that it's okay. So I think that's, that's something that's.

Yeah, that's good now or it has improved from what it used to be.

Herb: 00:46:29

The most important factor in a child's successful education is the level of involvement by their parents.

Number one factor, if you're going to the school, if you're participating in their after school activities or if you're homeschooling and you're actively working at it, there are, you know, that alone is the single biggest indicator.

So the fact that you guys are looking at it now even before they go into the school, it's like your, your children are going to have a serious advantage just because of how much you are already caring. So again, you're already like knocking it out of the park as far as parents are concerned. So congratulations there.

So you really don't have as much to worry about as you think you do because you care. Okay, so you got, you got the biggest part of the battle one. Okay, so congratulations there.

And now the rest of it is just techniques and fine tuning. So, you know, well done.

Kristina: 00:47:35

One of our, actually two of our previous guests, we had two doctors of learning on and they wrote a book called Wisest Learners and there's Wisest Learners Parents Edition, There's Wisest Learners Teachers Edition and there's Wisest Learners. I can't remember the third, I think Coaches edition for like sports coaches and things like that. And we don't get any kickback from this.

But I just know that talking to those two educator scientists who went through and done all the research and dug through all the research and researched all the kinds.

That's where that stat came from that he just said they found the research over and over about that is the most impactful is when the parent is truly involved and not just asking the question, how was your day? You know, that's, that's not what we mean. Because guess what, your child most of the time is going to shut down, say, eh, that was fine.

Herb: 00:48:20

Do that and so much, so much more. What we do goes back into communication, goes back into family development.

And again, we kind of started this to work with entrepreneurs because entrepreneurs spend so much time building their businesses because there's something wrong and they want to do all of this for their family to get their family out of the rat race. And then they spend so much time building their business that they never get time for their family, so they lose their family.

So part of what we were doing was to showing that it doesn't take as much time, that the flexibility of the entrepreneur world works really well with homeschool because it doesn't have to be an 8 to 5, it's actually only a couple hours day and can, and can vary it around.

And then we talked about how entrepreneurs are always working on personal development and they're always working on business development and they're doing all of this for their family, but they're never working on family development. So again, we bring it back to communication, we bring it back to goal setting, we bring it back to family values.

And how are you living your family values?

And, and so if you set out your values and you say your family is the most important, and then you look at your actions through the week and are you prioritizing your, your families within your actions, within your calendar, are your actions actually showing the priorities that, that you talk about from your heart? And so we help people around all of that build their family up and we use education as, as the starting point.

So it's so much more than that through, through our philosophy, than just how you educate your children, how you educate your children. The fact that you want to shows that you can do so much more with your family by, by growing it because you actually care.

Kristina: 00:49:59

Yeah.

Paul: 00:50:01

Yeah.

Sarah: 00:50:01

One of the other things that we've talked about is the, the concept of growth versus fixed mindset and in terms of education as well. And growing up, I was very much focused on being a straight A student, top of the class, et cetera.

And I mean, trying to follow the typical path of public schools, college educated, go back and get an mba. And it's easy to fall into the trap of you want your kids to be successful. Right. And to achieve their full potential.

And I know there was one instance I had when I was in elementary school even where I got like a B plus in a class. And you know, that was. My parents were disappointed that that was the case because I knew I could get an A.

And you know, I think there's a lot that we've all learned. There's a lot more content available to help parents now than there were 30, 40 years ago, including, you know, from an educational perspective.

But, you know, something Paul and I have talked about about is more focused with our children on their growth in those courses. Not necessarily did you get an A? But they're learning, they're continued learning.

I think I Learned something like 10 years ago that children are going to perform better. I'm probably explaining this poorly, but if you get an A, in one class and a B in another.

Our culture is very focused on working on that B course, which might not be a strength of your child to begin with. And it's really. We really should be focusing on those areas that they do well in because they very well might be passions of theirs.

Whereas I think, yeah, from a societal perspective at least, growing up, it was more focused on. Let's work on this area that seems to be a challenge for you.

Kristina: 00:51:59

It doesn't mean you have to hate.

Sarah: 00:52:00

It or ignore it, but it's like, hey, how do we. How do we focus on the areas that our kids are passionate about and doing well in while also supporting them in areas that might be.

Herb: 00:52:10

So I kind of have a question, kind of going back to. Also to the socialization. So I was also one of those smart kids. Okay? So I was kind of picked on a lot for being the smart kid.

Some of the most traumatic memories I have in my life happened in school.

They happened because there is a whole lot of untrained, young, stupid people who don't know what they're doing, forced to interact without proper supervision or training. So again, most. Again, nothing traumatic as what happened in high school ever happened once I got out of that situation.

So did you said you really enjoyed school? Were you not traumatized? Because I'm sorry that the smart kids with the straight A's who complained about getting a B plus because, you know.

Sarah: 00:53:07

I mean, I don't think so. And I think as. As time went on, when I was in high school, you know, we had such a variety of courses.

I took a lot of, like, AP courses or accelerated courses, and a lot of those are ones that you have to. You will have to want to be in those too. You have to test in or you have to want to be there.

So the people I was exposing myself to and that I ultimately was friends with were a lot of people with, you know, similar growth mindsets that wanted to achieve. And a lot of them are people I'm still friends with today.

You know, I think in elementary school, there's kind of an ick period with girls that are prepubescent, and that can extend into middle school. And I think that's true.

Kind of regardless of what kind of school schooling that you're in, if it's public, private, or otherwise, you know, there's a lot of hormones raging, and that can be challenging for girls. But I. I don't think I was ever picked on for being, you know, for trying to aim high or being an A student or Anything.

Kristina: 00:54:10

That's awesome. That is so awesome.

Herb: 00:54:12

And that's an amazing point of view that. That you also have, that you just step through that. So great. Thank you.

Kristina: 00:54:18

I love that discussion that you were having right before we talked about this was, you know, kind of redefining success. Is success really the A's and B's or a success, the growth, like you were saying, or the following of dreams and passions. Exactly. Awesome.

Herb: 00:54:31

And teaching children to be human and to breathe and to play and to have fun and.

And that society, while it's the most real thing, it's actually the least real thing that we actually have to deal with because, you know, the situations come and go and the feelings and the people in our lives, hopefully that would be most important.

Kristina: 00:54:53

Yeah.

Herb: 00:54:54

Awesome.

Kristina: 00:54:55

I think this has been a very wonderful discussion. Thank you for being so open. Thank you for asking questions. Thank you for sharing your points of views.

I hope this has been really valuable for our audience who is listening to this one as well. Was there any questions that we didn't quite get to that you were like, oh, I wonder if we can ask this while I'm on the show.

Was there anything that we.

Herb: 00:55:12

And were we helpful? Did we help you get anywhere or did we just, like, make your decision more harder, like, because it's like, we're all over the place.

Paul: 00:55:23

Yeah, no, no, I think. I think it was helpful. That does kind of lead me into one question I did want to ask.

So Sarah and I, I'll admit, we've had a number of conversations on this, and part of this is learning how to communicate together in an efficient manner and not talk at each other, you know, so that. That stuff that we're working through. So what. Do you have any recommendations for spouses that are maybe on a bit of opposite ends of the.

The table to come together? And, you know, we have a. We have that common interest. We want our kids to be.

To have the best life possible, you know, but at the same time, when it comes down to, like, having that conversation and we have those strong opinions, like, it can get heated sometimes. So do you have any recommendations for. Because I'm sure you've seen this in with other couples.

Kristina: 00:56:18

Yeah, actually, it's. It's almost. One of the saddest comments I hear is like, I would love to homeschool, but my spouse won't let me.

And when that happens, it's like, okay, that.

That really means that maybe, like you said, the communication isn't happening so that they can really express or maybe sometimes the trust Isn't quite there. Right. Because if you both want the best for your children, then there has to be a little bit of trust in, in, let's give this a try.

And if it doesn't work, it's okay. It's not going to ruin our child for the rest of their life.

And that might be putting them in public school for a year or two and it might be putting them in homeschool for a year or two. Right. So it, I think the best thing to do with that kind of situation is exactly what you're doing.

Talk it out, come at it from different points, get different viewpoints from different people.

Make sure you're doing your research just like you're asking the questions and, and you know, working with and talking with other families who are homeschooling other families who are being successful in the school district that your child's going to be in and then just having that loving conversation and just knowing, remembering we want the best for our kids and whichever way we end up going, that's going to be the main focus that what's going to be best for our kids. And the first thing I said was, it can't, it's not that it can't be undone. Right.

If you decide to homeschool for a couple years and it's a complete mess and it absolutely doesn't work, guess what? Your children are going to be fine because they were learning from you anyway.

They know you love them because you were giving this your all and they will be able to jump into school and, you know, go, or you put them in public school for a little while. It's not a great fit. You're all driving yourselves nuts trying to fit all those schedules. Like, you know what, we want to relax a little bit.

Let's pull it out and do homeschool and give that a shot instead. So hopefully that answers your question a little bit. It's mostly around that communication and trust and remembering who is it really for.

It's for the kids.

Herb: 00:58:14

And keep, keep your discussions policy related. Don't, don't get the emotions in it. And if you do get emotional, stop for a minute and try and figure out why. So anger is not a bad thing.

Frustration is not a bad thing. Just like a red light at an intersection is not a bad thing. You might pull up to. It's like it's green. Great. Oh yeah, I'm happy it's green.

I'm going to. You pull up to realize like, man, I hate that I have to stop here when you get into those heated discussions. That's a stop signal.

That's a time where it's like, okay, why am I having this thought? Why am I having this position? What am I trying to convey to her? And I'm not being understood.

So I'm getting frustrated because I don't think she understands what I'm trying to say. So it has nothing whatsoever to do with the policy. And I'm getting angry because she doesn't understand. And I'm not necessarily.

I'm talking about how I feel and why I get angry in that kind of thing. So I start to take it personal. She doesn't understand me. I don't understand her. And so use that as a stop sign. It's not a bad thing.

It's like, oh, I'm getting angry. That is my red light. That means I need to stop and take a look.

Because I am getting angry at the person that I have decided to spend my life with, that I have to build trust with, that I want to be there for the rest of my life. And so how do I need to behave in this situation, regardless of my opinion, so that I can show this woman how much I value her opinion and trust her.

Kristina: 00:59:50

And for me, that red light or that yellow light is like, oh, what's it triggering inside? Did I have a bad school experience around this, or did I have a bad learning experience around this?

Did I have a family experience around this topic that's actually triggering me instead of really what's being discussed?

Herb: 01:00:09

So the best thing I can do for you is to work on myself and figure out why I'm getting mad.

The best thing that you can do for me is to figure out why you're getting mad and maybe try and take that trigger out so that you can get to a place of harmonious communication instead of struggling to try and figure out what. What you each are trying to mean and say, because I can tell that you guys care. And so, you know, take that step back, learn to see those signals.

And then. And then, you know, man, love your wife, respect your husband. It's like, it's. It's biblical. It's out there. It's.

There's a reason it's in that book, and there's a reason it's so. It's so prevalent in that way. You know, you're not told to love him, you're told to respect him.

You're not told to respect her, you're told to love her. And so hold that and embody that. And when you get a Hold of that. It's like everything will start to work its way out.

And the fact that you care and you're trying with your children, like you've already won.

Paul: 01:01:11

Thank you. Yeah, that's helpful.

Kristina: 01:01:13

Awesome. Wonderful.

Herb: 01:01:14

Oh, I'm sorry. Whoa. Did I went off.

Kristina: 01:01:18

Sorry.

Herb: 01:01:19

Part of the brain damage opened up to that.

Kristina: 01:01:21

Yeah.

But no, no, seriously, that communication, that's, you know, one of the biggest things we say we're an education company or an education group, but it really goes back to exactly what you said. That communication, that carrying those values.

Herb: 01:01:34

And we've been together since: 1989

Kristina: 01:01:36

We had a little bit of experience.

Herb: 01:01:37

A little bit of experience.

Paul: 01:01:40

Love it.

Kristina: 01:01:41

Paul and Sarah, thank you so very, very much. Again, thank you for being open. Thank you for asking questions. Thank you for. For sharing.

I, like I said, I truly think that this will be a great show for all of our families who are looking into this and really asking that question. What is a great fit education for me, for my kids and for my family?

Herb: 01:01:59

Give them a lot more. Educate a lot more questions on both sides. Made it a lot more complicated. But again, you have more information to work with now and. And better ideas.

So. Yeah.

Paul: 01:02:10

Thank you for having me.

Sarah: 01:02:11

Thank you so much. Yes, it was fun to be here today.

Kristina: 01:02:13

Yeah, you're very welcome.

All right, Paul, make sure you give our audience the name of your podcast that you are working on, though, because this is going to be one of those places that we want to make sure that they also get other good information to help their families make great decisions.

Herb: 01:02:25

And I looked it up. It is really interesting. Check it out. Go.

Paul: 01:02:29

Yeah, so the podcast is the Y dad Podcast, and we have a website, y dad podcast.com. but you can also just find the podcast anywhere that you stream your podcast. And it's focused on dads, but really we encourage anybody.

Interest, anybody interested in parenthood or mothers as well, to check it out because, you know, can't have the dad without the mom. And we're just trying to figure out how we can become the best versions of ourselves and build the best families we can.

Kristina: 01:03:05

Thank you so very much for taking that journey and putting yourself out there in that way as well.

Herb: 01:03:09

And, Sarah, do you have anything else you would like to add in here?

Sarah: 01:03:13

No, nothing else on my end. We're just.

It was fun to be here today and to chat with all of you and thanks for sharing your insights and your experiences as well, with your background and your family, giving us some good things to think about and talk about today.

Paul: 01:03:29

Plenty of talking points. Don't worry.

Kristina: 01:03:31

Awesome. You are very, very welcome. All right, audience, that's going to be it for today.

Remember to like and share this show as well as any other podcast that you truly care about. Because the more share it, the more help we give other families and other children around the world in our communities and making it a better place.

So until next time, we will talk to you later. And bye for now.

Herb: 01:03:52

Bye for now.

Paul: 01:03:53

Goodbye.