S2EP27-Jen Dyer-Brain Talk & Body Talk: Fun Ways to Connect with Your Neurodivergent Child!

Herb: 00:00:19

Today I have the pleasure of introducing Jen Dryer. Jen is a parent, coach and educational consultant who support who supports families and teachers of neurodivergent children.

Jen has more than 20 years experience working with children, families and teachers in both New York City and D.C. as a public school teacher and staff developer, parent advocate and her younger son is autistic, has ADHD and ocd. That's quite a pair.

It's quite a collection. And her older son has ADHD.

In: 2020

Jen strives to help parents feel seen, heard and understood in the challenges they face raising their neurodivergent kids while providing parents with the space to connect with others who are navig. Navigating similar paths. She's a graduate of Brown University with a BA and a Columbia University graduate as a teacher with a master's degree.

ore moving to D.C. in January: 2009

She also has began at beginning, became a yoga instructor and has given her tremendous tools for facing the challenges of raising orchid kids. Welcome Jen. That is a big bio. Thank you so much. It sounds really awesome. Thank you so much for being here.

We look really forward to talking to you today.

Jen Dryer: 00:01:52

Yeah, happy to be here. Thanks for having me.

Kristina: 00:01:54

Thank you again. Yes. So we would love to jump in with kind of the passion, like what is it about? And we heard some of it in your bio.

But what made you really start this whole movement towards helping parents after becoming a teacher and all those kinds of things. Kind of like my story, you know, love being a teacher and I know the parents need some help and support along the way. Tell us about that.

Jen Dryer: 00:02:15

Sure. So, so we figured out that my, my younger son, we figured out when he was young, like 14 months that something was going on.

And at that point I was just working part time and I'd sort of taken some time off, you know, when he was born, working in, in the school system. And once I, we sort of went through this process of getting him tested and figuring this whole thing out.

My, my husband's aunt is a hearing impaired specialist. So she walked us through the whole process and I was like, oh my gosh, I had no idea that like all these things were available like what you can do.

It's very overwhelming.

And so to have her kind of guide me through that process, like, oh, we just go and, you know, go get a hearing test, start there if it's his hearing's okay. You know, sort of walked me through that, that process and got him tested.

It was free, you know, and everywhere in the United States, you can get, you know, free evaluations for 0 to 3. Really, you know, I mean, 0 to 5 year olds mainly. But really 0 to 3 is kind of the sweet spot where that's the easiest to.

They usually come to your home. And my son was evaluated and he was way behind, like, way, way, way behind in a number of different things.

And, and so we started, you know, free services, which was amazing. And he went from. In one year, so he got tested, he got evaluated at 17 months by D.C.

and one year later, he was reevaluated and he went from 50% behind in speech to 10% behind in speech in just one year because of all the interventions and because the brain is so plastic and malleable between, I mean, especially 0 to 3, but really 0 to 5, you know, by, by 5, 90% of the brain synapses begin to be formed, and by three, it's 80%. So it's like, if you can get in early, you can really help, you know, move the needle as much as possible.

Not to say that if you find out later, you know, it's. There's lots of stuff that can still be done. So, so.

But I just wanted to really, all of a sudden I, When I saw that exponential growth, I was like, more people need to know about this and need to, you know, just, just be aware of what to look for.

What are some of the things that, you know, are signs that my child's behind, you know, because I realized that so many people were just trying to tell me, like, oh, don't worry about it, like, he's a boy, like, he's your second. Your older son probably talks for him. And I really.

But okay, you know, and, and so I think I just really passionately wanted to help parents, like, you know, get the help early and get the support and not feel ashamed and not feel the stigma, because that's a real thing too. And I'm really pleased to see, you know, that needle moving quite a bit too.

Like, in that we're evolving quite a bit culturally, but, you know, but it's still hard for some, you know, many people to, to accept and to, you know, get the help and not just sort of push it off. And so as I like to always say, like, no one wins when you wait, right? So just, just find out so much.

Herb: 00:05:17

As pushing it off. So your. The start of your story is very similar. So our first child, we.

We figured out very early, before he was 2, that there was something not quite right and went through diagnosis and started finding things, had like, IEPs and stuff set up before school. But where you had it way better is you had somebody that helped you understand the services, find the programs.

We found like, one or two programs, and one of them was like a class is like, my child is different and it hurts. And so we went through that class and it was more about us, but resources for our children weren't out there.

So we struggled through it and we did the best that we could. But had we had resources, had we had. We had some of this understanding of some of these tools that are out there now.

But again, 35 years ago, this stuff. This stuff, you know, wasn't there.

Jen Dryer: 00:06:11

You know, no, there was so much less available. Yeah. And so. Right. And so just it. So it can be totally overwhelming for parents, you know, because, you know, this is not what we expected. Right.

No one, like, has a kid and mostly like, you know, expects your child or hopes your child will just, you know, sort of follow the trajectory and kind of just, you know, be normal and be all the things. And, you know, when things don't go as you envisioned, in whatever way that takes shape, you know, that can feel overwhelming.

And so to find, you know, a group of other parents navigating that and B, some expert support and. And guidance, you know, can. Can really feel incredibly comforting.

And, you know, I mean, we always joke that we sort of, like, save marriages also, you know, when both parents come, it can be like, you know, miraculous for. For understanding and, you know, just talk about children's education.

Herb: 00:07:04

We help parents homeschool, but that improves communication. That. That there has to be family work. There's. There's more commitments to it.

It's going into family values, about why you're homeschooling and aligning your values and your principles together. And. And so it's like, yeah, so that's kind of what we do too. And it's like, it's amazing how many people just don't understand that concept.

And just to have that as a core understanding can. Can just launch a family.

Jen Dryer: 00:07:32

Yeah, absolutely.

Kristina: 00:07:33

And I also want to touch on something you said there about, you know, kind of like the embarrassment or the stigmatism that, you know, parents often feel because of this. Right. Well, I was a teacher, so then I felt doubly ashamed. It's like, oh, my gosh, I'm a teacher.

I'm still not able to get everything I need for my child or oh, I'm still not able to help him enough. Right. Those kinds of things.

Herb: 00:07:51

Or we have the IEPs and none of it's happening in the school.

Kristina: 00:07:53

Right.

Herb: 00:07:54

Hey, I'm a teacher. How come I can't get that teacher? What, what they say they're going to do and all of this extra help and it's just not happening. What do we do?

So even as a teacher, it's like it was hard for us and we at times. Yeah. So now we help other people get through that.

Jen Dryer: 00:08:11

Yeah. As a, you know, I was an educator too and I was like, but, you know, but I didn't teach, you know, I was not trained in any special education stuff.

Like it just wasn't my, my sphere of understanding. And so, you know, I had the basics, but I didn't know, you know, sort of the in depth stuff. And I wasn't an early child educator.

And you know, so there's all these niches that we know we end up in and so sometimes when our kids are not in those, you know, it can, it can feel, but I can, I understand exactly that same feeling of like, but I should be able to. Right. And sometimes we just, we, we don't, we don't know all that we need to know to help. Yeah.

Kristina: 00:08:47

And one of the other things you said was that, you know, we are often told, oh, your child will develop, they'll get there, don't worry about it kind of thing. And one of the things that we also talk with family and I bet you do too, is like, follow that gut instinct.

I mean, you really feel there's something going on, don't wait for it.

Herb: 00:09:06

Yeah. Because even in your story, it's like at 14 months you realize like, hey, there's something going on.

And all of your circles like, oh, no, just let it ride, figure it out, it'll work. If you had done that, it would have made everything a lot harder later on.

So, so as a parent is like when you have those feelings, it's like, don't dismiss that. That is incredibly valuable information.

Jen Dryer: 00:09:30

Yeah.

That little worry, you know, I mean, because it is very enticing to just put your head in the sand and just hope it wish it away, you know, like, no, no, no, it's going to be okay. Right. Because you know, it feels, it feels very scary. Right.

Like you start imagining like what, what's going to happen to your child when they're 40 and you know, you're, like, so far down the rabbit hole sometimes, you know, that. That you just can get overwhelmed.

And so I think when we can just sort of dial things back a little bit, like, what do I need to take care of, you know, right now?

Herb: 00:10:02

So now that we've got a lot of parents into their fields and. And now another whole aspect of this conversation is, okay, now, how do we help the children? How do we talk to the children?

Because it's like, okay, we know all of this stuff. We know how that. But they're little. They're not going to understand this information. They're not going to know what we're talking about.

They're just going to know that things are different. So how do we start talking to the children about the differences in a healthy manner for the child?

Jen Dryer: 00:10:37

Well, I think, you know, I think in terms of, you know, there's different ways to look at it. Like, one, you can, you know, if you have a diagnosis for your child, right. Like, when do we, you know, lay that out for them?

And that can be really different.

Like, I don't think there's anyone that says, by age 5, everyone should know their diagnosis or, like, by age 9 or, you know, I think it really depends on the child, and it depends on the child's openness to it. Right. And interest in it. Right. And so it doesn't make sense.

So I think we told my son, maybe he was about 8, because that was when he first started asking, like, why do I like to watch the same TV shows over and over? But my brother Zach, like, does not want to watch. Like, why is. I don't understand that. And I was like, well, so glad you asked.

So then we sat down and, you know, and one of the things that. That at raising orchid kids, we try to coach parents to do is something called brain talk. So we talk a lot about our brains, right?

And we just, like, layer it in. Like, my brain loves, like I said, this is what I said to him. I said, your brain loves to watch the same thing over and over again.

That makes your brain feel really good. It feels safe. It feels great. When you watch the same thing over and over.

Zach's brain gets really bored when he watches the same thing Again, his brain does not like to do that. Isn't that interesting? Right? And, like, leave it there. Right?

And so it's like, you know, one of the things that we always say is, like, so that was my first kind of conversation with him about brains and differences and sort of laying that foundation of we all have different brains that perceive and move through the world very differently. Right. And so if we can start to kind of lay that foundation for kids. And you can do that early.

I mean, you can do that with a three or four year old if you want to be. Like, your brain really loves playing with that toy, doesn't it?

You know, like, or like, you know, your brain loves to watch Bluey, you know, or whatever it is that is the current show. My kids are 13 and 15, so I don't really know it's so current anymore. But.

But anyway, those are the ways you can start to kind of layer in the brain talk. And then, you know, we also put in the body talk. Like, looks like your body really needs to move right now. Does he look you.

Looks like your body feels really wiggly, right. And so kind of getting them to understand, kind of tune in to like what's going on for them, you know, a.

What are the ways that their brain and body work and what are the things that are shift within them and you know, how do we take care of those things? And, and the whole goal of all that stuff is so that down the road they learn to, to advocate for themselves. Right. And like understand their brain.

You know, what we call metacognition, like understanding the way their brain works and what triggers my brain, what makes my brain feel good and feel happy. Right. And what do I need to do in these situations that can trigger my brain to help myself get back into a calmer state? And same thing with my body.

Like when my body feels really wiggly, what do I need?

Kristina: 00:13:24

And the best part about that, I love that you didn't use the label right away. They don't need the label right away.

Instead you went to the brain and the body and it helped them understand themselves and saying basically victim status, oh, I have this, so I can't do that. But is it that positive way you framed it in the way that it really helped them connect? I love that and I hope a lot of parents heard that.

Listen to the way you approach it and answer the question that your child asks. Don't give them a whole bunch of extra stuff, right?

Jen Dryer: 00:13:56

Yeah.

And then, you know, and then down the road you can layer in the labels, you know, if it, you know, I mean, I think again, we don't want them to feel shamed about it, but we also don't want, you know, want them to understand this is just a part, you know, you have an autistic brain. That's cool. This is your. Some things that some Autistic brains like, and don't like and struggle with and are good at.

Here's the way that yours looks, you know, and, and what do you think about that and what do you have to add to that kind of thing? Sorry, I interrupted you. What were you just going to say?

Herb: 00:14:23

That's quite right. You also just kind of like actually just kind of blew my mind and just opened up a whole lot of new perspectives for me.

And that's one of these things that I really like about this podcast. So you talked about the kid's brain being different as. Oh, your brain likes this, my brain likes that.

I used to come at that through personality like, oh, hey, this is the way introverts work and you're introverted and so you get energy this way. You know, when you're in crowds it like takes energy.

So, so it's like you can't be out in front of the group of crowd the whole time because that will drain you. And so, so I talk about stuff like that and now to also talk about it in the brain and then you talk about it in the body.

And then I'm thinking also there's now the emotional intelligence where we're separating out the emotional body as well. And so in a way we're not giving the kids the, the mind, body, spirit connection that is so necessary, but we are in, in the words that you're using.

And so the way that you were talking about that right now, it's just like it brought the humanness in it to me.

It's like, because one of the things that we really like to do is teach children how to be human because they think that all of this stuff is what life is about instead of being human. And that's just what we do as part of it. So that becomes their identity.

And so yeah, so what you were talking about, oh, hey, that's the way your brain and my brain is like that. That was just epic. And my mind is just so. Thank you.

That that's one of the best reasons I like doing this, this podcast as well is because it just, you get these things that just open it up and change your perspective on so many areas.

Jen Dryer: 00:16:02

Yeah, I mean I think that that brain stuff is, it's just, just like if we can normalize talking about it that way, like all the time, just like, you know, we don't even have to talk about our kids brains like, you know, just like those commentaries as you go, even if you're talking to one another, you know, like my brain is really Having a hard time with whatever right now, you know, like, or my brain is feeling good right now. I just finished something that was like, took a long time to finish and it was a lot of work. Like, ah, my brain feels really satisfied right now.

And so, you know, you're just, you're just layering that in. And some of the reason that, that we. We coach parents to do that is because also the.

When you take out the, like, I feel really good about this or you feel really good about this, like, it sort of feels like your whole self, right?

And so sometimes when it's like a thing that's not positive, like when that's feeling like my whole self has a hard time with loud sounds, you know, then like, there's something wrong with me. Right? And so what it also sort of, you know, we coach into like, you know, and this is what we say to my. I say this to my son all the time.

And this came, you know, through one of his therapies that he has been in. But this idea that we talked him, like, your brain sometimes tries to trick you. You kind of have a tricky brain sometimes.

And when your brain tries to trick you into thinking, like, oh, this is way too hard, or like, I can't do this, you know, here are some things we can do. And, you know, sometimes we honor our brain. Like, we need to take care of what our brain needs.

And if our brain is willing to try, you know, one thing when it's feeling really upset, like, how do we move it back? And, you know, so that idea of teaching them that, that actually their brain doesn't. I mean, it does control you, but like, it doesn't. Like, we have.

There's a way as our, you know, as our prefrontal cortex is developing and, you know, I mean, the bad news is that that doesn't develop till age 25 in neurotypical kids. So later in neurodivergent kids, but that, you know, that we are able to sometimes begin to learn how to override some of the impulses that we have.

Herb: 00:18:00

So that got into parts work and internal family systems and trauma stabilization therapy. So it's like the, the separating the parts out, the, the not be. So it's like when you're.

If you say, oh, I'm angry, is like, is all of you angry or is just a part of you angry? It's like, is there a part that. That has a different feeling? Is there, Is there. Is there shame? Is there frustration? What's going on with the anger?

And so breaking it into parts, the brain part, the body part. And then being able to, oh, this part that wants to have this and this part that wants to have that.

And now this conflict is inside of you because of these two parts that want different things.

And now we have to resolve that, to feel so again, it's like the stuff that you're talking about just, it's like taking so much of the stuff that I know and from so many different varied ways that I've come at it and just like condensing it. So it's, it's beautiful. So thank you very much.

Jen Dryer: 00:18:52

Yeah, thanks.

There's some great books that, you know, that I read to my son when he was, you know, when we were, you know, broaching the topic of kind of the way his brain worked. So there's, there's one I really love. It's called they All Saw a Cat. And it's all pictures and, which is really cool.

And it's basically about like, you have like a, this cat and then you have a mouse who's looking at the cat and the cat looks totally ferocious, right? When the cat, when it's from the mouse's perspective.

And then you have a dog looking at the cat and the cat looks like really scrawny because like now the dog is looking at the cat and the dog sees this like much smaller thing.

And you know, and there are a few different, you know, like a human's looking at the cat and the cat looks like loving and sweet and you know, it's just really interesting how I just love that because it, it's just a nice way to frame the idea that we perceive things differently, right? Different brains perceive things differently. And so it's a good way to kind of start that conversation.

Herb: 00:19:49

So when your kid, when your child, kid, when you did finally have the talk about his diagnosis, so you, you started talking about it a day about differences. When did the actual diagnosis and conversation happen about, about the label, about the actual medical difference?

Jen Dryer: 00:20:09

So, yeah, that's a great. I mean, so. So we started talking about brains.

And you know, the one thing that we also always tell parents and you know, we've done webinars on this stuff like, you know, because it's, it's in a really important and tricky topic is that it's like a lot of five minute conversations, you know, instead of like, we have to sit down and I need to tell you something about your brain, you know, like, no, like, let's just be very casual about it and just be like, you know, hey, this is the thing that your brain likes to do. And this is the thing that Zach, you know, your brother's brain likes to do.

You know, tie that one off with a nice bow, and then let's move on, you know, like, next week, you know, something else comes up.

And so one time, I think it was just, like, maybe shortly after we started having that conversation, you know, because part of his autism is repeating. Like, he likes to, like, have that conversation again. And so he will say that. It's just. I just, like.

It is just so weird that Zach doesn't like to watch the same thing, you know? And I was like, yeah, I know. And I said to him, you know, you have an autistic brain. It's called autistic. It's, you know, it's autism.

Something called autism. And it just means that your brain works a little bit differently than Zach. Zach does not have an autistic brain.

And so, you know, I sort of just sort of started there, right?

And I was like, you know, and some of the things that are cool about your autistic brain is that, like, it helps you see things that, like, I don't even notice, right? And so. Or, you know, my brain doesn't. No matter. You don't have an autistic brain. And my brain does not even notice those, like, things.

I mean, so my son, like, fixates on fonts. He can. Like, he's like, oh, that font is the same one that they used at, like, that restaurant we went to last week.

And I was like, but it's because he's got this incredible brain that, like, sees so many more things and holds on to many more things than I do. I mean, like, I am not good at directions. That kid can get me anywhere. Like, he's like, make a left here, Mom. Make it right over there.

You know, he knows exactly where he's going because that's how his brain sees, you know, sees things in a different way than mine. And so that was kind of how we started it.

And then, you know, again, we came back to it again when he would ask another question and, you know, and get really frustrated about something and, you know, have a meltdown.

And when he was calm, I would say, yeah, you know, sometimes your autism makes it hard for you when there's loud sounds or when, you know, someone says something that. That, you know, triggers you. Like, your brain has a really hard time, you know, not, you know, reacting in its reaction, whatever.

And so things like that. And so.

And again, layered it in, and I said to him, you know, also, you know, part of why it's hard for you to, like, sit, you know, sit down and, like, do something that's not very interesting is actually part of something that's called adhd, which is another thing your brain, you know, is going on for your br. And I said, you know, actually, you know, then I could talk about my older son who also has that. And I'm pretty sure I have ADHD too.

It's not diagnosed. And I was like, I'm pretty sure I have that also in different variations.

But anyway, that's sort of how, you know, you can layer it in and just start to sprinkle it into conversation in a really non. And the way, you know, for me, anyway, like, my.

I feel like my big goal is to have people and kids and people, you know, future adults not feel ashamed of their diagnosis and not feel like they have to hide it and mask it, which can be, you know, there's just a lot of research out on how that masking, which is like hiding your autistic traits and hiding your neurodivergent traits. I mean, we all have to do it, right? Everyone has to mask at some point. We have to teach our kids to sometimes mask. Right?

Like, you can't just, like, I fit in because. Yeah, well, you can't like, yell. What.

Think what's coming up in your mind when we're like, you know, at like a theater, you know, or something like that. Like, you know, there's a time and a place space for things. So, you know, that's stuff that they need to be explicitly taught.

Like, it's not going to come naturally.

Herb: 00:24:02

To our kids who are neurodiverse masking. So, you know, children go to church, they get wiggly. Is. Is masking teaching them to sit still? Is that masking?

So, again, so kind of what I'm asking is, is are there tools that we can teach children to compensate or not even to compensate, but to. To.

To thrive with their differences instead of saying, oh, you know, that this loud sound, you're going to react like that is like, oh, this loud sound that's going to. You're naturally going to react like that. How can we. How can we calm that down within you? So, yeah, tools like that.

Because part of that also kind of sounds like, oh, well, you're like that that's going to happen. Or you're like that you're going to yell. It's like, so.

Jen Dryer: 00:24:50

So like a. You're like that, right? Your brain reacts to loud sounds.

So what do we need to do right in order to help your brain feel better when the sounds are loud. Right. And so could be that. And so this is what we also call, we call them, we teach parents what we call antecedent interventions.

Like what do we need to do ahead of time? And this is always your best return on investment in helping kids behavior.

Because the other thing that we tell parents, which is always a little alarming to them, is that you cannot control your kids behavior. It is 100% out of your control.

You can set it up so that we're going to have the best possible scenario to like try, you know, to do what we need to do ahead of time to hope that this goes well. And that does not like 100% of the time determine that things are going to go well.

We can also, you know, think on the other side, like what do we need to do once that behavior happens.

But you know, the middle part, the behavior itself, you know, is 100% in our kids control, which can be really hard and it's not, you know, and we, I, I think we also need to be able to let go of like shame around our kids behavior.

Like if we have a neurodivergent kid who like reacts to loud sounds and they have a meltdown, you know, when a loud sound happens, that was maybe an unpredictable loud sound, right? When it's predictable, we can plan ahead, right?

Like if we're going to church and we know like there's a loud choir or something like that that happens, that feels loud, there's a bell, there's a something that might feel triggering. We can bring headphones, we can bring, you know, we can make sure that we're in a quieter space.

We can like hold something that like feels soothing to them, you know, whatever it is that was going to help. And that's going to be something that you can determine with.

I mean the older they are, the more they can start to say, hey, this is what helps my brain feel better.

And here's the thing that you know, when, when this gets triggered and we can, you can try out a few things, but some of it is just kind of coming prepared, right. And so knowing that those, you know, even the unpredictable challenges are really kind of predictable.

Like they, you know, you might not know that the ambulance is going to, you know, come by at this very moment, but you know that the ambulance sound might be triggering to your child. So we have kind of at the ready. Here's some tools for when that happens.

It just helps your child know what to Expect, like, have a sense of, like, I have an agency here. Like, I can control, you know, I can do something to help myself feel better in this situation.

Kristina: 00:27:13

And I love that because, I mean, you know, neurodivergent or even our, you know, regular, quote unquote kids. Right. You can make sure you set up situations that aren't good for them.

If, you know, you're going to a party or something and there's probably going to be foods that they don't like, you bring a snack bag of things that they would like. Right. Kind of thing.

If they are going on a big adventure, you make sure that their blood sugar is steady by having those snacks and things like that they get enough sleep the night before. All those different things that parents sometimes forget about. And I was guilty of that. I mean, we went to Disneyland.

I was like, oh, my gosh, we're going to have the best time in the world. And we didn't have such a great time the first day. And he's like, wait a second. We just took them out of their schedule.

They're in this way, overstimulating area. We didn't eat on time, we didn't sleep as much as normal. And you're expecting them to be perfect boys.

And it's like, oh, yeah, maybe we need to back up a few steps. So the next day we approached it differently. We went in the morning, did some things. We took a break in the afternoon, went back at night.

Oh, my gosh. The day was completely different because like you said, we were setting things up for the best possible outcome.

Herb: 00:29:56

Yeah. And if your kid has to sit still for a while, run the heck out of them for an hour.

Jen Dryer: 00:30:01

Yeah. Get them, try to trampoline, whatever you need to do. Right.

And maybe they hold a fidget and maybe they have something, you know, like something else that they can be doing that they know, like, oh, I might get fidgety when I need to sit. Like, let me plan that out. But yes, totally. Right, Right. No, and that's what I think. You know, some of it is.

Kristina: 00:30:19

I.

Jen Dryer: 00:30:20

Well, not even some of it. I think like 75% of it is managing our expectations as parents. Like, you know, knowing what's going to. What might happen. Right.

And planning, like, a little bit in advance for kind of what's our plan B, you know, like, in case the plan A, you know, which we were imagining happening, you know, doesn't occur.

Herb: 00:30:39

And I must say, if you have a boy and you're going anywhere near water, grab a towel, even if you're not planning on getting in the water. Okay, girls, girls, not, not Guys, guys gonna fall in. He'll figure out how to fall in. So bring a towel. Be prepared.

Kristina: 00:30:56

I actually want to jump into the relationship between the. Between your boys, right? Because we also have two boys and our oldest one is on the autism spectrum.

And the thing that really hit me hard one day was when my younger son said, why do I have to be the big brother? Why do I have to do more, understand more, et cetera.

So I'm wondering what kind of conversations have you had between your boys that might be helped smooth some of this out, might help other parents smooth this out?

Jen Dryer: 00:31:26

Yeah, we actually. It's funny because that you're talking about this because I am literally just writing a blog post for.

On siblings, and we're running, we're doing a, A workshop on siblings in a couple of weeks on managing siblings when you have one who's, you know, non.

Or we call them orchid kids because we like to imagine, you know, them like the flower that needs the right support in an environment, and then they can blossom and be beautiful and, and grow. But they need specific stuff, you know, that you can't just, like, put them in a dark corner and hope for the best.

And like, some plants, some plants can do that, you know, like, there are the, you know, dandelions that grow out of the cracks of the sidewalk, you know. Anyway, so I think with siblings, it's tricky. You know, it's hard.

And I think that the message that we always wanted that I always, you know, say to my kids, so my, my older. So I have it kind of the opposite. Right? So it's my, my older son who is, who is more neurotypical.

I mean, he has adhd, but it's, he's, you know, socially neurotypical, and my younger son, who's. Who's not. And, and I, and they do love each other and there are like, lovely moments where they can play together.

And then there's like, you know, lots of, lots of non. Lovely moments, I will say. I mean, okay, that's life. That's siblings, you know, and also it is extra hard.

And, you know, while it's different because of the, you know, the, the flipping of the ages, the thing that I always say to my older son is like, you know, like, equal isn't, like fair isn't always equal. Right? Like, what's fair and what's, what's.

What's going to be helpful for your brother in this situation is different from what's going to be helpful from, for you in this situation. And that's because your brains work differently.

So we talk about, you know, I talked to, you know, the other piece too is like talking to your kids, the siblings, about the diagnosis. I. So I talked to my older son about Max's, my younger son's diagnosis way earlier.

So my older son was like 5 and he was like, why doesn't Max ever want to like, you know, play with me in the way that, you know? And, and so I said, well, let me tell you a little bit about it. Max has this autistic brain. And I was like, telling him about that.

And so then, so then, you know, they all process it in their own ways. But this was really funny. Then like a few days later, I had like a running grocery list, like on the counter.

And it was like milk, eggs, you know, like, you know, sugar, whatever. And then my son wrote toilet paper because he was five, you know, and then he wrote like poop, and then he wrote autism.

Well, we're not going to go pick up some autism or poop, really at the grocery store, but okay, you're working through it. And, and so I think some of that is just like, they need to kind of play around with it and do that.

But, but the other pieces that, you know, I did, I sat down. We've had a lot of heart to hearts with my older son, like, with like, like really serious, deep, big feelings happening.

And you know, my older son is. I'm 5:2. My older son is like pushing 6:3. So it's really interesting. Yes. So we have to sit and we were looking at a third thing.

We're not looking at each other because, you know, this helps.

And I just have to validate for him that it's hard, you know, and that validation is really important, you know, like, I see you and I get it and it's hard. It's hard. It's hard having an autistic brother. It is, you know, I was like.

And you know, I do think that it will help you become a more understanding person and down the road you will just understand, you know, be more compassionate in general. But it's funny because he's like, not. He's like, but I'm not more compassionate now. And I was like, that's true.

Kristina: 00:35:05

It'll probably change later.

Jen Dryer: 00:35:06

Yeah.

But I do think that having those conversations where you can just like talk through and be like, you need to understand, like, like this is what his brain has a really hard time with right now. Like, it is learning we're working on it. You know, he can't remember that you told him that last time.

He, like, his working memory is not awesome, you know, so it's like he can't recall the thing that happened last time. He's not, like, drawing to mind. So even though I know you think, like, oh, I told him that. Why is he doing that again? Like, it's so annoying.

Like, he's, you know, he's not able to control his impulses yet, and that's hard. Right. And you can feel frustrated with that. Like, that's okay. You know, he can't change it right now, and you can have your feelings about that.

So I think that's sort of the way that I go about it, you know, that, like, we have to accept what's in front of us. Right. And who is in front of us as parents, as siblings, as all the things. Right. We have, we can work to help them. Right.

Like, navigate relationships better and navigate all the things better. And that piece of acceptance is really, really important at the same time, you know, but also validate for everybody, like, what everyone's feeling.

It's okay to have the feelings. Like, as parents, it's okay to be upset, you know, when your child. Yeah. And feel frustrated.

Herb: 00:36:25

All of this advice you're giving works with neurotypical.

Jen Dryer: 00:36:29

Yes.

Herb: 00:36:32

With regular kids as well.

Jen Dryer: 00:36:33

Yes.

Herb: 00:36:34

I grew up with two of my four sisters. I had one older, one younger. The conversations kind of would be like, well, how come I can't do that? They're doing that.

It's like, well, they're four years older than you are. And it's like, well. And then we're like, how come she gets to do that? We didn't get to do that till we're 10. She gets to do it at 7.

Kristina: 00:36:54

It's like, yeah, I've learned a little.

Herb: 00:36:56

What's going on? It's like. And she's complaining. How can they get to do it? We're complaining. How come she gets to do it? And so it's like, you know, it.

It's never fair. There is no. There is. You know, so it depends on the situation.

And as the only guy, I was allowed to do things my sisters weren't allowed to do as girls. They were allowed to do things I wasn't allowed to do. It's like, life isn't fair.

Jen Dryer: 00:37:19

Yeah. And I guess that just that idea, like, fair is not, you know, like, equal isn't fair necessarily. Right. And so if we can know in schooling 100. Right.

Like, if we Want to. You know, I love image.

I don't know if you've seen it, that it's like a drawing that's gone around that sort of has, like, kids, you know, looking over the fence and some. Some are shorter and some are taller and, like, you know. Yeah.

I mean, if you give everyone the same size ladder, like, some kids will see over the fence and some kids won't. And so we need to adapt to, you know, where our kids are and what they need. So. Yeah, I think it's tricky, though. I mean, it's hard.

And siblings are hard in general and particularly hard when one of them isn't, you know, is a neurodivergent.

Herb: 00:37:59

And then. Yeah, adding the neurotypical, the neurodivergent in there, the autistic, that adds a whole layer of complexity. So.

Jen Dryer: 00:38:06

Yeah. And then you have, like, you know, for some of them, sometimes my.

My older son, like, I'm like, I know you might feel embarrassed sometimes by the way way Max acts.

Because, you know, I mean, my oldest, my younger son, like, I mean, for better or for worse, that kid does not know how to mask, like, so he is just, like, wants to dance to this thing. Like, we're in, like, public, and he's just dancing to it. And I was like, well, cool, you know, like, I'm not. Like, you're not harming anyone.

And this makes your brain feel happy and good, and, like, I think it's fine, like, if you're flailing your arms and someone's over there and you might hit them, like, we can't do that, you know, but, like, you can have. You can do your thing.

But, you know, I was like, I recognized for my, you know, you know, teenagers, they have, you know, all sorts of stuff going on. And so I, you know, I was saying to him, like, I get it if you feel embarrassed by him, but.

But I think it's kind of inspiring how little he cares about what people think about him. Right.

Kristina: 00:39:03

If more of us cared less about what other people thought with our heart, I mean, yeah, I think we'd probably be in a really good place.

Herb: 00:39:09

And who hasn't been embarrassed by their parents once or twice? It's like, you know, you're embarrassed by your kids, you're embarrassed by your sister. I was embarrassed by my sisters all the time.

It's like, I think they went out of the way to try. So, you know. But yeah, sometimes when.

When there's differences in the embarrassment and the embarrassment is because of a difference, that in that way, it can it can hurt. So I, I.

There was a lot of times where, when I saw what was going on with my son and the, and in the autism and how he was treated, it put me into really dark places about stuff that I went through, and it actually sometimes made it hard for me to step up and advocate for my kid. Because of the trauma.

Jen Dryer: 00:39:56

Yes. We get triggered. Yeah. Yeah.

Herb: 00:39:58

So if you, If. If your child is. Is neurodivergent and you feel embarrassed to stand up for them, that's not you. We went through that. It hurts. It sucks.

I mean, I feel myself tearing up right now because of how much more I could have done had I understood those kind of. Of ideas. So. So, yeah, yeah, it's hard. Yeah, it's hard for the parent, so.

Jen Dryer: 00:40:25

It is. It is.

And, you know, and there are times where, like, you know, when we were, you know, I have this couple of these, you know, stories always float in my head. Like when. When we were watching my older son at a karate. He was probably like seven, and Max was five or four and a half or something like that.

And, and we were watching him, and, you know, we just sit in the karate room where he was doing his, his, you know, it's his, like, little kid karate class and, and, and something. I don't know.

Max was doing something, but it was like he was getting worked up, and he started kind of talking loudly or something, and this man in front of me, like, turned around and glared, you know, and gave me like a, you know, like a dirty look glare. And I got like, pharaoh's. Like, I'm sorry, he's autistic. You know, I just got really. And I started. I was like, I'm fighting back tears.

I could just feel like, like, you know, and it was really interesting. And I was like, okay, I need to have compassion for that guy too. Like, he doesn't know.

That said, like, we should stop making assumptions about, like, you know, and judging other people in our parenting, because that.

Herb: 00:41:26

When you were going through that, did you think you're the only person who ever felt that way at that moment?

Jen Dryer: 00:41:33

No. I knew that I was probably not alone because at that point, I'd already been, you know, sort of.

I knew other parents with neurodivergent kids and autistic kids and, you know, and I knew.

Herb: 00:41:45

Yeah. Because the first time that happened to me is like, I felt so alone. Is like, yeah, am I the only one? And so again, knowing that they're.

Knowing that this isn't unusual, that this might happen. Prepare. Even the parents For. For when it does is like, oh, this is what they were talking about.

And that might help you shift out of that just a little bit sooner to give yourself a little more comfort in how you are responding to the situation.

Jen Dryer: 00:42:15

Yeah. And I. We always say to parents, like, have a script.

Have, like, a thing in your head that you're going to say, like, that you've practiced, you know what you're going to say, you know, that.

That, like, if someone is looking at you funny because your kid is doing their quirky thing or having a meltdown in a public place, you know, have whatever thing you want to say. Like, he's having a hard time right now. Sorry. That he's being loud. You know, like, hopefully, you know, whatever you want to say. Like, he's autistic.

He's having a meltdown, whatever, you know, you don't have to say that. I was, like, a big fan of trying to, like, very much destigmatize, you know, the diagnosis part. So I would always tell people he's autistic.

It's okay.

He's just doing this thing right now, you know, but everyone has to make their own, you know, choices of the language and things that they want to do and say. So. So I think whatever you feel comfortable with, I think it is a really good plan, though, to, like, know ahead of time, to prepare ahead of time.

Like, this might happen. Right. And, you know, what might we say, what might we plan ahead to note?

That way it just feels less over, you know, you feel a little bit less overwhelmed, I think. Yeah.

Herb: 00:43:20

And then you won't regret what you said, and then you won't regret what you didn't say.

Jen Dryer: 00:43:25

Right. Right.

Kristina: 00:43:26

Awesome. Jen, this has been such an awesome conversation.

Thank you so much for all the tips and all the help that you've been giving our parents on in this podcast, in this broadcast. And, you know, everything that you've been saying is just like, so right on. Especially when you're doing it in a place from the heart. Right.

And you're doing it not as an excuse, but as an explanation instead. You know, unfortunately, in my 27 years of teaching, I had parents who would walk in and immediately say, my child's autistic. And they can't do this.

This. It's like, excuse me, have we even tried yet? That kind of thing.

So I love how you're coming at it as a professor perspective of, you know, let's give it a try.

Let's give them the tools to try something new, et cetera, et Cetera, and you're not using it as an excuse, but as a springboard, like, how can we help them, you know, work through all of this?

Herb: 00:44:10

My brain works differently. How do we fit it into making this happen?

Jen Dryer: 00:44:14

Right. Or I have a hard time with this. You know, what helps get through that thing, you know?

Kristina: 00:44:19

Yeah, exactly. So help parents understand a little bit more about you and how they can contact you if this conversation has been helpful to you.

Parents, guardians, grandmas, grandpas. I mean, you know, we have our relatives who don't understand our kids part time because they aren't in the house with them every single day.

So how can our audience get a hold of you if this is resonated? And they would love to get some help?

Jen Dryer: 00:44:41

So you can. Anyone can email us at Raising Orchid Kids. All one word at gmail. We also have a website, Raising Orchid Kids kids dot com. We have a blog.

We do like free blog posts every other week. And we have webinars and we have classes for parents on there and lots of resources on there. So that's a great place to stay connected.

And you know, parents, actually, even on our website, there's a way to just like send us a note and ask a question or. And reach out. So. So we also.

Herb: 00:45:11

Information will be down in the show notes so you don't have to remember it, but that's for people who are listening. If you want to write it down real quick or back it up a little bit, write it down.

Jen Dryer: 00:45:21

Awesome. Yeah.

And we have a Facebook group that's like a private group that, you know, people can join to, you know, share resources and, you know, ideas and thoughts and all this stuff can just find community. So that's another. Another nice free that we offer.

Kristina: 00:45:38

Excellent. Thank you so much. Was there anything that we didn't get to today that you were kind of thinking, oh, I really want to make sure I talk about.

Jen Dryer: 00:45:43

About this? Right? Yeah, I don't know. I don't think so.

I mean, I think, you know, when we're thinking about how as much as we can, as much as possible, like, you know, moving from that place, as you were saying, of, you know, compassion. Right. And. And assuming, you know, there's a couple of things I always joke that, like, we want people to tattoo on their arms in case.

In case, like, I'm stuck, I'm like, oh, oh, yeah, right. You know, like, look down. And so that. That idea that, you know, he or she is not giving me a hard time. He's having a hard time. Right.

And that idea of like, understanding that, like, when my child is melting down, he's having a hard time. Right, is a really great perspective shift that one.

And one other that I really love is that the shift from, you know, a lot of people will say, well, he's just like, attention seeking. And that one really kind of bothers me a little bit.

And so I've reframed it to call it connection seeking, which I really like, so that a lot of times when kids are seeking attention, it's like they're feeling disconnected so we can help them feel connected so that, you know, they're doing the thing that is attention seeking, you know.

Herb: 00:46:48

Another fabulous piece of advice.

Kristina: 00:46:49

Thank you so very much.

Herb: 00:46:51

So, anyway, at this point, I would like to thank you for being on the show today. So many people these days, when they come across a problem, they do bury their head in the sand and turn the lights off and hope it goes away it.

And instead you took the problem and you shine a light on it and you're helping other people with it. So you are a hero.

You've gone out and you fought your dragon and you're coming back to the community to spread the story of how it helped and how you can help other people. So you are a hero. So many people just turn their back and you're throwing it out there and getting it out there in front of the people.

And that is so many people. Can't do that. Don't do that. So thank you for being here today. Thank you for sharing your story. Thank you for helping families.

Jen Dryer: 00:47:36

Thank you for having me here. It's been a really great conversation. I really enjoyed it.

Kristina: 00:47:40

Thank you so much, Jen. All right, audience, you know what to do. It is time to hit that share button. Hit that like button.

Make sure that other parents get to hear this wonderful information. Share the podcast, let them know that there is help out there for families and lots of of different ways. We help with education, family dynamics.

Jen helps with, you know, dealing with the orchid children and all the special, unique things about them. Go to the person that can help you and your family the best to make sure that your child is being raised in a happy, healthy and successful way.

Until next time, bye for now.

Herb: 00:48:13

Bye for now.